So.. Is the Gay Man flag problematic?

The flag above is made by @gayflagblog.

> Before we get into this, I want to make a statement regarding the history of this carrd. If you know, you know.<
The current owner of the carrd ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT excuse any of the past owner's actions and condemns them as our trust was betrayed as well. Using this flag ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT mean that I or anyone else who uses it supports them and their actions, as this flag WAS NOT created by them. Thank you for understanding.Saying again before starting, THIS FLAG WAS NOT CREATED BY THE PREVIOUS OWNER OF THIS CARRD, AND ALL OF THEIR ACTIONS/STATEMENTS ARE COMPLETELY UNRELATED TO THE CONTENT OF THIS CARRD.!!!! THE OCEAN/GAY/VINCIAN FLAG WAS CREATED BY @GAYMANFLAGBLOG ON TUMBLR, NOT BY THE CARRD'S PREVIOUS OWNER !!!.

This is a question that has been floating all around the internet ever since the Gay Man flag, pictured above, became popular. To be short and simple, no. But that's not the reason this carrd was made. The history behind the current Gay Man flag is complex and long with many misconceptions. Let's get into debunking each false claim.

The creator is problematic!

This isn't an easy one to break down, so let's first get into the history of how the flag, from proof to final concept, was made.It's important to remember that @Ask-Pride-Color-Schemes, @discourse-king, and @gayflagblog are 3 DIFFERENT people. The current creator of the Gay Man flag is @gayflagblog.The original proof was made in 2016 by a pride flag creationist blog, @Ask-Pride-Color-Schemes.

This blog features many different flags, including ones for Bi/Pan lesbians. This is where the "creator supports Bi/Pan lesbians" claim comes from.

The creator of the original proof, @Ask-Pride-Color-Schemes does support Bi/Pan Lesbians, there's no doubt about it.
Bi/Pan Lesbians do NOT exist. This is one of the many reasons why this particular gay flag should not be used And why a new gay flag was created.What about the transmed/transphobe claims? The claims behind the proof creator being a transmed/transphobe comes from a reposter.

This reposter's post was made in 2019, 3 years after the original proof was created. It's safe to say that @discourse-king was NOT the creator of the original proof.So... What about the current flag creator, @gayflagblog? While I can't find much info on this creator on their opinions, the creator of the current Gay Man flag, posted in 2019, is a disabled Trans Gay man.

While it's hard to figure out the exact date for this creator's post, you can find it in the source code of the page via Inspect Element.

So, going through all of these screenshots, it's safe to say that @Ask-Pride-Color-Scheme is problematic, while @gayflagblog is not.It's important to remember that @Ask-Pride-Color-Schemes, @discourse-king, and @gayflagblog are 3 DIFFERENT people. The current creator of the Gay Man flag, @gayflagblog on Tumblr, is a disabled Trans Gay man and so far there is no proof to show he is problematic.

The flag is a ripoff/recolor/hueshift of the Lesbian flag!

Well, that's a lot to unpack. Let's start with the ripoff claims first. The current Gay Man flag, made by @gayflagblog and pictured below, is accused often of copying the Sunset Lesbian flag, also pictured below.

To be able to debunk this in particular, I'll have to get into creation dates. The current Gay Man flag was based on the original concept flag, pictured below. This flag was created in 2016 by @Ask-Pride-Color-Schemes.

This came from the suggestion of an anon who wanted a Gay man specific flag. @Ask-Pride-Color-Schemes decided to go for blue and teal, considering the Butch Lesbian flag was already purple.

The sunset lesbian flag was created in 2018, two years after the original proof was created. You can see, however, that the flag proof was inspired by the Lipstick Lesbian flag.

The flag was inspired by the Lipstick Lesbian flag, as stated by @Ask-Pride-Color-Schemes. There's a bit of irony behind declaring the proof and current flag as bad because they are inspired, but we'll get into that later in this carrd. It's clear to say that the original proof flag was NOT copied off of the current Sunset Lesbian flag. Now, let's get into the hueshifting claims.The videos below are of both the Sunset Lesbian and Lipstick Lesbian flags being hueshifted.

While you can get close to the general greens and blues, you can NOT get an exact coloration, no matter how hard you try.Blue and pink are generally opposites from each other, so in general, you can ALWAYS get close. That's just how colors work.The claim that it's a recolor as well is silly. So many flags share the same general layout. An example of this are the demiboy and demigirl flags, whose experiences are entirely unique to themselves and Yet their flags are the exact same except for the pink and blue stripes.
Flags having the same layout with different colors has been common in Pride flags, so to claim that the ocean flag is bad or wrong for this reason is a silly and rather uneducated response.

The flag is a copy of the lipstick lesbian flag!

There's a bit of irony in declaring the current Gay Man flag as bad because it's predecessor was inspired by the Lipstick Lesbian flag. Let's get into the history behind the creation of the Lipstick Lesbian flag, and it's own inspired origins.The Lipstick Lesbian flag was created in 2010 by a now widely known TERF.

However, there's a flag that predates this flag by about 2 years. The Cougar Pride flag, a jokey flag in nature, was created in blank by a Gay man drag queen on a pod cast.

Let's put the two flags together, shall we? It's clear that the Lipstick Lesbian flag was heavily inspired by the Cougar Pride flag.

But wait, the Cougar Pride flag was inspired by another flag, the Bear Pride flag. The Bear Pride flag is for a subset of Gay men, and was created in 1995.

The Cougar Pride flag was meant as a feminine twist on the Bear Pride flag, as you can see by their fairly similar layouts.

So, after all of that, it's kind of silly to bash the current Gay Man flag as bad for being inspired by a common flag lay out when the flag it's predecessor was inspired from was a direct rip from a flag created by a Gay man, which was inspired by a flag meant for a community of Gay men. Isn't that convoluted!Here is a fun graphic that basically summarizes the above material, created by @uwumars!

The flag supports bad gender stereotypes/toxic masculinity!

That's a harsh judgement to make. I'll let @gayflagblog's statement on this speak, as I can't explain it well myself.

I'd like to make a statement myself. The claim that the flag is bad for being inherently "masculine" in nature is a pretty harmful statement in of itself.There is a difference between masculinity and toxic masculinity, and as a Trans Gay man myself, we are allowed to embrace and love masculinity in a healthy way.Masculinity can be just as beautiful as femininity. We're allowed to be masculine and embrace it, just as gay folks are allowed to be feminine and embrace it. Both are valid ways of identifying under the gay label and this flag is not exclusive to masculinity. The GNC part of the flag represents fems, mascs, and everyone in between.
Below is a statement from the ocean flag's creator on the 'blue is for boys' argument, which this flag is not a representative of at it's core.

So... What flag do we use?

In all honesty? Whatever flag you personally want to identity with. However, if you're looking for a specific Gay Man flag to use, use this one! This flag was made by @gayflagblog, a disabled Trans Gay man, who so far I cannot find to be in support of any of the claims made against the flag.To be clear, this flag does NOT include mspec mlm. It is for specifically Gay mlm and does not include people who experience mlw attraction in any way. @gayflagblog confirms this on his blog.

It even has an artist/merch friendly version, as well as philly pride versions.

If you're not into the cooler color scheme, @gayflagblog also has made warmer color versions, with philly pride versions as well.

In the end, there are MANY different flag variants for Gay men to use, as well as MLM flags. It is your personal choice, if you're MLM or a Gay man, on what flag you use to represent yourself. No one can tell you what flag you can or can't use.The only flag that would be improper to use is this one. It only got meanings after @gayflagblog's flag was created and was made by a bisexual mod at @Ask-Pride-Color-Schemes, NOT a Gay man. @Ask-Pride-Color-Schemes as a whole supports mspec lesbians as well, unlike @gayflagblog.

In the end, it's mostly important to remember that discomfort around the flag does not mean it's harmful in nature.However, it is completely valid and okay to be uncomfortable/not like this flag. That doesn't mean that it is okay to threaten people who use it.

Well... this gets complicated.

After the creation of this carrd, there's been a new carrd that was created to combat my carrd's sources and reasoning.I can tell that it was directly inspired from my carrd as it takes the same screenshots and reasoning, while cutting out the parts that don't fit the user's narrative.

I'll be addressing the main point of the creator of this carrd, @strwbryfemme, which is that the Gay Man flag is still offensive to use on the basis of "copying" a "sacred" layout in lesbian history.

I'll let the screenshot speak for itself at first. Take in how the creator has worded it for a moment.Now, let me put this into words. This carrd is framing Gay Men as oppressors of lesbians on the basis of having similar flag layouts. Dear reader, while the internet may have convinced you otherwise, Gay Men and Lesbians have solidarity built by tears and blood. The damage that this mindset creates is not only harmful to Gay Men, but Lesbians as well.A layout of stripes and colors does not make a flag unique in any way. It's the meaning of those colors and the meaning of the flag itself that makes the flag sacred. I frankly believe that internalized homophobia and radfem ideology has framed this argument in a way that can't be dispelled with facts alone, which was the point of my carrd.I have seen many people blatantly take the carrd out of context to smear the flag, or like the carrd fighting against it, use it on the basis of framing discomfort as genuine harm against a community we are meant to be in solidarity with.This carrd was meant to take a neutral stance on the argument, clearly using facts to dispel all misinformation against the flag. It's clear that with the carrd against it, that this fight wasn't made because it was a "bad" flag. It was made because of internalized homophobia that people seeked a reason to justify, fueled by the ideas radfems have poisoned the community with.If @strwbryfemme wishes to have a genuine conversation on why their carrd is horribly misguided in nature, they're free to try and reach out to me. I've kept myself anonymous due to the nature of this discourse, but if they wish to speak, I'll be there.In the end, I only have a few words for the impressionable minds still reading. Just because something causes you discomfort does not mean it is oppressive towards you. Gay Men and Lesbians, as well as all MLM and WLW in general, have and always will be in solidarity with eachother. We are two sides of the same coin, even though our experiences are vastly different.History can not be erased.

> Hi! This is the current owner of the carrd. The previous owner is no longer associated with this carrd. While I agree with nearly everything this carrd explains, I have changed the wording in some areas to better reflect not only my take on this stuff but also to clear up any instances of accidental or otherwise stereotyping and lesbiphobia.If you see anything else that you feel could be changed and want to DM me about it (respectfully would be preferred, haha), my twitter is @ginkg0guild. I'm also willing to talk to anyone who has any questions about ANY part of this carrd through twitter dms as well, as they will always stay open.This carrd was NOT made with the intention to attack or belittle anyone, or to tell you what flag to use. It is simply a carrd that explains and debunks certain things said about the ocean gay flag, and that is all it is meant to be.I am not stopping or telling any of you reading to change your opinions or personal thoughts on the flag. You don't have to like it! Honestly, you can hate it if you'd like, it doesn't bother me and it shouldn't bother anyone. The only thing that might bother some users of this flag are direct threats to their safety, which is reasonable.

Links to the source of each screenshot I've made.